Comments on: Scheme is a good language for beginners http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/ My opinion on Teaching, Programming, Technology and Web 2.0 in Mauritius Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:07:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: selven http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-127035 selven Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:12:31 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-127035 <i>Given time, most of them (including you :-) ) would solve all problems given…</i> aahh you are wrong about me :D given time.. i wouldn't be able to solve it in time there. ever since i found out why :p [i.e why i will never succeed in that], i automatically got in a good mood and gain arrogance :D i am 1337 :) don't try to figure it out :p <i>personally, I am happy to believe that what they are doing is RIGHT.</i> I would hate to be ruled by the *top universities* rather than my own sense perverted sense of reasoning +$3|v3n Given time, most of them (including you :-) ) would solve all problems given…

aahh you are wrong about me
:D given time.. i wouldn’t be able to solve it in time there.

ever since i found out why :p [i.e why i will never succeed in that], i automatically got in a good mood and gain arrogance :D

i am 1337 :)

don’t try to figure it out :p

personally, I am happy to believe that what they are doing is RIGHT.
I would hate to be ruled by the *top universities* rather than my own sense perverted sense of reasoning

+$3|v3n

]]> By: avinash http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-126969 avinash Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:46:19 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-126969 Everything is relative in life: there is no absolute right or wrong. What is probably true is that when the top 5 universities in the world agree not to teach C++ to beginners and opt for either a functional language or a modern dynamic scripting language then, personally, I am happy to believe that what they are doing is RIGHT. Since 2006 when we had the first local contest, I noticed two things: (i) few students participate and (ii) among those who participate, few managed to answer more than one question. This has only one explanation: our students have issues solving problems and writing programs quickly. The important word here is quickly. Given time, most of them (including you :-) ) would solve all problems given... As for Ruby > Scheme, it's because Ruby looks more familiar. It has nothing to do with the respective qualities of the two languages. Everything is relative in life: there is no absolute right or wrong.

What is probably true is that when the top 5 universities in the world agree not to teach C++ to beginners and opt for either a functional language or a modern dynamic scripting language then, personally, I am happy to believe that what they are doing is RIGHT.

Since 2006 when we had the first local contest, I noticed two things: (i) few students participate and (ii) among those who participate, few managed to answer more than one question.

This has only one explanation: our students have issues solving problems and writing programs quickly. The important word here is quickly. Given time, most of them (including you :-) ) would solve all problems given…

As for Ruby > Scheme, it’s because Ruby looks more familiar. It has nothing to do with the respective qualities of the two languages.

]]> By: selven http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-126957 selven Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:18:05 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-126957 "The top five universities in the world can’t all be wrong after all :-)" You've still not changed.. when the top 5 universities think they are doing something right... it doesn't mean THEY ARE RIGHT! "In my opinion, students are shown the syntax and semantics of the language but not really how these can be used to solve real problems. This is very apparent during the ACM Local Programming Contest we organize every year…" :p hmm .. i believe i am supposed to think i can't solve real problem because of a local programming contest :D? *[i or anyone who didn't win :p] "I am starting to think that Ruby (or Python) would make a better programming language for beginners than Scheme" one thing that we both agree on :D +$3|v3n “The top five universities in the world can’t all be wrong after all :-) ”

You’ve still not changed.. when the top 5 universities think they are doing something right… it doesn’t mean THEY ARE RIGHT!

“In my opinion, students are shown the syntax and semantics of the language but not really how these can be used to solve real problems. This is very apparent during the ACM Local Programming Contest we organize every year…”

:p hmm .. i believe i am supposed to think i can’t solve real problem because of a local programming contest :D ?
*[i or anyone who didn't win :p]

“I am starting to think that Ruby (or Python) would make a better programming language for beginners than Scheme”

one thing that we both agree on :D

+$3|v3n

]]> By: avinash http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-126771 avinash Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:34:51 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-126771 Hi fluxy, Thanks for this great comment. I am starting to think that Ruby (or Python) would make a better programming language for beginners than Scheme not because they are better but they look familiar. Decreasing the pain of adoption is what matters after all... Hi fluxy,

Thanks for this great comment. I am starting to think that Ruby (or Python) would make a better programming language for beginners than Scheme not because they are better but they look familiar.

Decreasing the pain of adoption is what matters after all…

]]> By: fluxy http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-126767 fluxy Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:17:30 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-126767 Hi! Having been a beginner once, and far from being currently an expert, I believe: - Logo is the perfect language for people having only basic computer skills (it's almost natural). - Visual Basic : lots of clicking here, easy and fun - but vb can be misleading (people failing to understand the true notions of programming) - Php makes a perfect starter language, the advantage being that its rules are not very strict (especially as far as variables are concerned), you can start doing lots of things thanks to its library of functions (which makes programming more interesting), added to (my)SQL it can give you notions of databases and given its C-inspired syntax, you can easily move to other languages like C or other C-Syntax-inspired languages. Php was my first 'serious' programming language after vb. The problem with php is that html knowledge is highly desirable such that it can become a pre-requisite. - Python : it is an all-rounder programming language, and being interpreted it can be learnt using the interactive shell, which helps grasp the basics. Added to Tk bindings it can provide strong notions of gui creation (unlike vb's point and click or php's html). A great guide (http://www.framasoft.net/article1971.html) helped me get started easily and quickly which is kind of cool. The problem with Scheme (based on my first glances thereof) is its language style which is unlike other 'popular' (C-Styled) programming languages, and hence is confusing for me. I will try to take a better look at that later though. Hi!
Having been a beginner once, and far from being currently an expert, I believe:
- Logo is the perfect language for people having only basic computer skills (it’s almost natural).
- Visual Basic : lots of clicking here, easy and fun – but vb can be misleading (people failing to understand the true notions of programming)
- Php makes a perfect starter language, the advantage being that its rules are not very strict (especially as far as variables are concerned), you can start doing lots of things thanks to its library of functions (which makes programming more interesting), added to (my)SQL it can give you notions of databases and given its C-inspired syntax, you can easily move to other languages like C or other C-Syntax-inspired languages. Php was my first ’serious’ programming language after vb. The problem with php is that html knowledge is highly desirable such that it can become a pre-requisite.
- Python : it is an all-rounder programming language, and being interpreted it can be learnt using the interactive shell, which helps grasp the basics. Added to Tk bindings it can provide strong notions of gui creation (unlike vb’s point and click or php’s html). A great guide (http://www.framasoft.net/article1971.html) helped me get started easily and quickly which is kind of cool.

The problem with Scheme (based on my first glances thereof) is its language style which is unlike other ‘popular’ (C-Styled) programming languages, and hence is confusing for me. I will try to take a better look at that later though.

]]> By: avinash http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-126257 avinash Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:28:46 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-126257 Yes, their very first exposure to programming was <code>#include <iostream.h> void main() {   cout << "Hello world" << endl; }</code> instead of <code>puts "Hello world"</code> Poor them... An update: I don't want to give the impression that the choice of the programming language is the only important decision to make. There is also the choice of the topics to be covered. In my opinion, students are shown the syntax and semantics of the language but not really how these can be used to solve real problems. This is very apparent during the ACM Local Programming Contest we organize every year... Personally, I think that a mix like Harvard's is close to perfect: introduce programming to students using C (to understand how a computer works) and Ruby (to learn about problem solving) in parallel. Yes, their very first exposure to programming was

#include <iostream.h>

void main()
{
  cout << "Hello world" << endl;
}

instead of

puts "Hello world"

Poor them…

An update: I don’t want to give the impression that the choice of the programming language is the only important decision to make. There is also the choice of the topics to be covered. In my opinion, students are shown the syntax and semantics of the language but not really how these can be used to solve real problems. This is very apparent during the ACM Local Programming Contest we organize every year…

Personally, I think that a mix like Harvard’s is close to perfect: introduce programming to students using C (to understand how a computer works) and Ruby (to learn about problem solving) in parallel.

]]> By: Stéphane Lee http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2008/04/11/scheme-is-a-good-language-for-beginners/#comment-126245 Stéphane Lee Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:21:05 +0000 http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/?p=438#comment-126245 OK, you are telling me that C++ was their first programming language? I fear for your students. Ada or Pascal would be my choice for the first language. C and then C++/Java would be the next languages that the students should learn. As I always say, one should learn his algorithm first, then pointers and oop. OK, you are telling me that C++ was their first programming language? I fear for your students. Ada or Pascal would be my choice for the first language. C and then C++/Java would be the next languages that the students should learn.

As I always say, one should learn his algorithm first, then pointers and oop.

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